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Well, here's Morris Jessup. I've been wanting to have a visit with you for a long time.

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I hear you're back from Mexico.

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Yes, I've been back about six weeks. I had a very interesting trip down there.

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I was able to work with the Mexican government and had access to a million photographs taken from the air over Mexico.

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And from these, I have been able to find at least 15 what I call extraterrestrial claders,

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and possibly a number of other ones, although the other ones are too small to verify from photographs taken at high altitudes.

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The ones which I have been able to study in detail are very large.

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The biggest one being about a mile and a half across, and the smallest one about six to eight hundred yards.

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I'm quite convinced that this group of claders was made by something arriving on Earth from space.

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And since the geologists tell me that they may not have been made by meteors,

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we have to look for other causes as well as meteors.

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It's my opinion that these claders were made at the time when the continent of Atlantis was destroyed,

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and that the entire Caribbean Sea and Gulf of Mexico area results from an impact of a very large group of objects from space or from a comet,

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and that this physical evidence, which I am uncovering in and near Mexico and around the Caribbean Gulf of Mexico area,

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represents the physical brie and results of the cataphalos, which Immanuel Velikovsky has outlined in his three books.

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Well, then I hear you say once that you thought there was some similarity or relationship between those and the type of thing that is visible on the moon, the claders.

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As I can make out, these claders in Mexico are identical in appearance with the smaller claders,

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which are just barely within the limits of small telescopes, which are seen with large telescopes.

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Well, there are many, many thousands of claders on the moon that range in size from a half a mile to five or ten miles in diameter,

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and these claders are, you might say, laboratory specimens of what exists on the moon.

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Not only that, but a large number of them are in geographical areas in Mexico, which look just like the areas on the moon where these little claders appear,

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and they make an environment or a surrounding exactly of the same nature as those on the moon,

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including the desert or semi-desert conditions so that the claders could be associated with one clader from one or another.

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Well, glad to die here at that hint, but these claders might possibly be some kind of hangers for flying saucers.

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Why'd you get that from you or someone else?

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It could be. I have considered that. I haven't found any conclusive evidence for anything like that,

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but on the other hand, I have not had much time to spend in the field.

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Certainly they are not being used for that purpose at present because there are people all around them,

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and if anything like that was going on, it would be known, but there are rumors that the claders down on the border of Guatemala and Mexico are being used for that purpose,

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and I think Wilkins has reported that in one of his books.

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Well, I've got your new book today about the UFO in the Bible.

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Well, that's just a curtain laser to problem of UFO in the Bible.

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I've had time to read only the introduction, and I think that is beautifully written.

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If the rest of it is like that, it's going to be really worthwhile.

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Well, the rest of it is more analytical than the introduction.

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It was very difficult to present a problem of such magnitude or even to outline a problem of such magnitude in a short little book like this.

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In fact, this book was written as a chapter in the expanding case for the UFO,

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which will be out probably in September and October.

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But the publishers liked the little story about the Bible so well that they decided they would just lift it out and make a separate book of it.

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So I wrote the introduction after they had done that.

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Actually, I have not tried to cover the so-called classic Bible references,

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such as Ezekiel's Wheel, for instance, or the taking of Elijah to heaven and a fiery chariot or whatever it may have been.

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But I have tried more to perhaps take a philosophical view and to interpret the spirit of what the Bible has to say to us,

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rather to set the stage for what which is to come.

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I have selected as text, if I may use the preacher's term,

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selected the 13th chapter of St. Mark, which seemed to me to cover in a very brief form almost all possible phases of UFO and space life activity.

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And I view this as a cross-section and just as a sort of a preparation for other work.

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In fact, I am continuing the work right now.

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How many more books did you say are in the office?

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I would say that three more books on the Bible is the minimum in which I can cover all of the UFO material which I see in Bible, as I am reading it today.

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And the UFO annual, is that coming down again?

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We are not sure.

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Citadel told me to go ahead and collect the material.

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I just heard from them this week that there certainly will be another volume of this kind.

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They are not sure whether they want to make it an annual or a biannual.

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But if they make anything, I feel sure it will be an annual because a biannual doesn't make any sense at all.

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It's not current enough.

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Well, this is practically your life now, isn't it?

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Well, I am not doing anything else except find the lawnmower at the moment.

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Well, the subject owns us. It's so much bigger than we are. I don't blame you.

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Well, that is certainly the truth. The subject takes hold of you and practically becomes a slave to it.

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It's a little hard to explain, but once you get into it, you recognize the length and the breadth and the depth of it to a point where it is not only amazing, but perhaps a falling as well.

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I was interested in your view that we were talking about a little while ago in the philosophical picture.

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It wasn't too bright the way you put it, but I guess we can all agree that the world is in a state that we've never seen before.

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The world is certainly in a mess that we can agree on.

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Whether a new concept will straighten it out or not, I don't know.

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I have a friend that I correspond with in Arizona who says it's already too late that the human race is beyond faving.

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I think that there's a little bit on the pessimistic side.

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If I didn't think it was pessimistic, I don't think I would waste any time writing books. That wouldn't be worth the effort.

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Well, sometimes I'm overwhelmed at what the man has done through science and the terrific accomplishment.

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There's just something there about it, but it's more a nature that doesn't get straightened out.

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And I wonder if this new dimension that we're facing, whatever it is, will perhaps be a means of getting us in balance again.

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I think there is a possibility of exactly that.

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It certainly is true that all through the 20th century and perhaps slightly before the beginning of the 20th century,

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science has been running ahead of the man on the street.

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And in the past, I want to say the past 30 years, this gap has been widening very seriously.

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And in the past 10 years, it's been widening at a very alarming rate.

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Of course, it's been said that Isaac Newton was the last human being who would ever know all the science of his time.

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And that was probably true.

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But I don't know hardly what can be done about it.

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It seems that once if you try to talk about slowing science up,

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immediately everybody screams that you're impeding progress.

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And maybe they're right, but I think sometimes we're imputing change with progress and don't actually know that we aren't truly progressing.

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It's certainly true that science has set up a vast framework of the material or purely mechanical phases of the world we live in.

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And as far as science has gone, it has pretty much proved its points and consolidated its gains.

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But science is just as bigoted today and just as arrogant as the church was in the dark and middle ages.

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And where the church overlooked what most of us consider to be reality,

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science is in turn overlooking all of the, nearly all of the spiritual values, and I think both of them have missed both.

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What we need is a great synthesis.

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I think that is exactly right.

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And I'm writing these books about the Bible, precisely that in mind, that we should perhaps start another school of thought which will consolidate what both religion and science have given us from the past.

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I think if we don't do something like that and do it very, very quickly, that the human race is just going to fall apart for lack of, I'd say, intellectual cement.

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It's not possible to go there.

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I'm sure we can't stop science. The momentum is going too fast.

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But it puts a great responsibility on the few to have vision and who have a synthesizing deal with this thing, try to get it in line.

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I think your books are going to play a big part in this because I know how sincere you are and I also have to notice your, what I call, a born researcher.

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There aren't any too many of those.

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That's true.

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And then being a real astronomer too, there's not any too many of those in this field.

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Well, as a part of that, I know there aren't any other ones in the field except Mansell and he's in a completely negative place.

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You know that?

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Somebody's got to get in and upset what he has to say on the subject.

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Yeah.

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We're going to keep on being lopsided no matter.

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Mr. Jeff, if I'd like to ask you a few questions.

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Okay.

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Getting back to your current research on the UFO and the Bible, rough figures, just about how many references would you say exist in the King James Version of the Christian Bible today?

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I haven't made an analytical study all the way through the Bible yet.

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I have covered in an intense way so far, the five books of Moses.

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And just in this part of the Bible, there certainly are hundreds of either direct or indirect references to UFO or related phenomena.

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I wouldn't want to be deported on how many there actually are in the Bible because I'm sure somebody will go out and count them.

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And here's an interpretation of what the UFO reference will differ from mine until one walks out the Bible and I do perhaps and so will come up with two different figures.

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But certainly, directly and indirectly, there must be thousands, literally thousands with references in the Bible.

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Would you say that's the divide equally between the Old Testament and New Testament?

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Or do the larger amount of fighting scenes occur in the Old Testament?

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I don't think I am yet confident to answer that question quantitatively.

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From what I have seen of the Old Testament, the references are just tremendous.

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I think also the Old Testament being a much longer work that even if you had the same number of references per chapter or book that the weight of it would be in favor of the Old Testament.

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I don't think I would answer that yet until I've completed this study and I think it will take me a year to complete it.

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So I've got a long time off.

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Have you had or do you anticipate any criticism from organized theology in any way at all?

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Any criticism of your books?

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I'm buying a real estate inside of one of these craters in Mexico for stuff that's contingency.

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I'd like to ask a few questions about your recent trip to Mexico.

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You mentioned something about pictures you had been examining.

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Have you been looking at pictures of actual UFO phenomena or mostly like this?

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The first was a connection with the crater study.

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The Mexican government is very cooperative and very sympathetic to research and whether it's a UFO or any type of research.

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And the government, unofficially but very kindly, made available to me a whole room full of aerial photographs on which I could search for new examples of the craters and study their geographical location with respect to each other.

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Some of these photographs will undoubtedly in the long run contribute to a solution of what caused the craters and how long they've been there and whether or not they're of any use to us or anyone else at present time.

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But the work is very preliminary and it was only towards the very end of my trip that I did succeed in getting this very kind of cooperation from the government down there.

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I went out and climbed into, I believe, a total of eight out of the 15th level of off.

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And I personally am thoroughly convinced from the photographs and from this very quick field work that they were caused by something from space.

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Well, most of your trip then was concerned with this crater research then instead of UFO that is correct.

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I did not go to Mexico to primarily to study UFO.

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I went for two purposes. One was vacation, thumb writing and all of this heavy pondering and analysis that goes with this type of writing and to get up and open and check into my craters which I hadn't visited for about four years.

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Would you care to make any comment about UFO activity in Mexico in general? Any conversations you might have had down there indirectly as a result of your trip?

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I didn't have many conversations directly about UFO.

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I found, from talking with three or four different people, that the officials of the Mexican government are very much concerned about this problem and much more willing to talk about it than the officials of some other governments that one might find.

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And newspapers are much more open minded.

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I found the staff of La Pensa, for instance, the largest circulation newspaper in Mexico to be intensely interested in this problem.

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And as soon as they knew of my interest in Mexico and in the craters and in the UFO, I was dragged around through this big building and introduced from everybody from the elevator point on up to the top.

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I went up to the owner and the managing editor.

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I might say also that La Pensa has bought the Mexican rights for the case for the UFO and I saw the Spanish translation, also the cover for the book, and it should be, of course, in Spanish.

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It was then another month, I would say, probably in August.

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Since you have made it quite clear that most of your activity in Mexico was with other direct activities in the UFO, do you care to say anything in conclusion for this tape in regards to flying saucers in general all over the world?

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Any recent observations on your part? You care to speak about?

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Well, I get time mail, of course, all the time, and not as much perhaps as some of the writers who deal in more in current sightings.

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But I've been getting another influx of mail since the annual came out.

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And while it seems to have been a law in sightings, this law is partly due to lack of reporting facilities rather than an actual absence of UFO activity.

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And I think it's more urgent than it's ever been before that a worldwide reporting system be set up and the centralized clearinghouse be organized so that if the governments are going to put pressure on or sneer the whole field into a ridiculous state,

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that those who really know what's going on can get the information. Even my clipping service doesn't give me complete coverage.

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I didn't get one single clipping for the big sightings in Cincinnati last August from the clipping service.

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And I would honestly like to see some organization perhaps subsidized or financed.

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Even a civilian organization?

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A civilian organization of people who are serious about this subject, we never don't get it from our government.

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There's a lot of talk about that.

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Oh, I'd like to see it. And if it's going to be suppressed or discouraged in this country, I'd like to see it set up in Mexico before. Really, open-minded about it.

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Well, Wilkins says that this government or England will never tell.

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But never is a long time.

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I think that we might smoke them out eventually.

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He says it's up to the civilian.

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Well, I think that's right.

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Well, I understand you never acquired the name of Uncle UFO or something like that, haven't you?

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Well, somebody has called me old man at UFO, but the name is getting to be a relevant dispute in the family circles.

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Well, anyway, I think you hold a very big place in this research.

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Well, I'm trying to supply the background which will make the work of other people less radical or less objectionable to the public in general.

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If I can show that these sightings which other people are recording and discussing, and I think particularly of the wonderful job that Major Kehoe has done in bringing the current activities to the front.

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If I can supply the actual background data and show that not only is this whole activity logical, but that it's real and that it's been here for a long time, I think I will observe perhaps all the purpose that one person has and who I too.

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Well, I think you will observe the big purpose.

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We're all on different paths of the business, have you noticed?

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Yes, we are.

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We all contribute something just a little different, some are a great deal more than others.

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I think Mr. Gisaya's chart here is unique.

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So, yes, it's been a good piece of reference work for any researcher to have on his wall at all times.

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Well, I'm very happy we could have had this little chat, and I hope you'll come soon again.

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I'll be very happy to.